Newbie question: What does Poppy have against M/S?

[fallinstars97]

You know I agree with stephell on that TPTB should have allowed the sexual tension to build, but I was thinking as I was rereading this thread over again. Someone said that MS was the big relationship for WAT....well it obviously still is. I mean at the beginning of season 4 they had us guessing are they going to reconcile yes or no...then in season 5 they were on the backburner and yes I saw some flirting in the episode where Sam states that was why she didnt go to her senior prom (sorry cant remember the name of the episode), but if they completely centered WAT around M/S it wouldnt really be about the missing people anymore, and now they may have us thinking that again? I think they are dragging it out just at a VERY VERY VERY slow pace, but like I said they show is guranteed to last til 2010 as long as ratings stay up because thats how long ALP is contracted to the show and then his contract comes up for renewal. Its just now 2007 we've still got at least two more seasons before we're in some serious trouble with the show being cancelled (once again as long as ratings stay up). Its like on House with the Chase/Cameron relationship...they were somewhat on again off again for like the first three seasons. It may be my optimistic nature or something but Im thinking that TPTB are dragging this relationship out at a REALLY REALLY long pace and one day maybe at the end of the shows run or towards the end they'll have them get back together. I'll admit TPTB are lacking alot with many things that are unresolved, but who knows what'll happen in this season or the next one for that matter. They may just pull it together and start getting things right again.

[smartybear2]

It's so funny, I started this thread when I first joined the forum, and this is going to be my almost-200th post. Time does fly when you're having fun.

I remember that someone mentioned M/S was supposed to be the IT couple on the show in Hank's original vision of it. I think that J/S was just an off-shoot of how people reacted to the ambiguity of Sam and Jack's interaction from the pilot; at the time, there was no clear foreshadowing of whether or not any of the characters would eventually get together. I think J/S shippers just started cropping up while the original set of writers were still trying to slowly set up the M/S romance. (Remember that even by the episode "In Extremis" Sam and Martin were still hardly friends). Add into the mix how Poppy seems to be just throwing herself at the opportunity to be ALP's love interest (and my inner cynic says it's probably because of the increased airtime potential since he is the LEAD), and voila! M/S as the IT couple is suddenly scrapped, and J/S (shudder -- I'm sorry, you can NEVER convince me this is anything other than weird) becomes the new IT couple.

I would give anything to be optimistic, but here's why I think that's the case.

If M/S were really the IT couple, they would have handled getting the two of them together more carefully. The scene at the end of season 2 was just the right note for a deeper relationship -- if they had wisely left the sex out of it first. It would have been more like Sam was really giving Martin a chance if she hadn't rushed into a physical relationship right after Jack left, instead, giving Martin more access to her emotional side, you know? Martin could have spent the night at Sam's apartment after an entire night spent talking and not... you know. I could have gone without the bed scene if it meant delaying it for another, more opportune time.

Having Sam and Martin have sex then having Jack not leave after all dooms the M/S relationship because Sam doesn't really get to CHOOSE who to be with since she essentially becomes trapped by the fact that she's started to sleep with Martin before she ever got to say good riddance by choice to Jack. Am I making sense? If the writers were serious about M/S as a relationship, they would have let Sam choose Martin over a period of time when both Jack and Martin were both present and available to her.

Another thing, as Meredith pointed out earlier -- the fact that Sam continues to have these broody moments over Jack even after 4 years and is hardly broody about Martin (who is her immediate past) appears to be a foreshadowing of J/S being the IT couple of the show. *sigh* I will never get it -- how the heck can Sam choose dark, not-good-for-her Jack over hot-in-shades, loved-her-to-pieces Martin? the woman is a masochist and is emotionally stunted thanks to these writers who apparently do not know anything about character growth.

At this point, all I am hoping for is closure and an attempt to bring the friendship back. it would be nice to see Sam a bit sad about what she's lost with martin, not just as a lover but as a friend -- at least, it would tell us that it meant something to her at the time. the whole business of TPTB trying to sweep M/S under the rug completely is another sign that they've decided to make J/S the IT couple of the show.

I should stop... being logical and pessimistic is shooting holes into my own ship.

[stephell5969]

Hey Smartybear,

I think you make some great points about the whole M/S thing and don't even get me started about yet another storyline they've swept under the carpet and to think they devoted almost an entire season to it.

I do resoundingly (and probably will get yelled at by die-hard PM fans, and I'll survive) agree that the lack of character growth and the stunting of said character growth are the core of the problem.

Samantha has had innumerable opportunities to grow, S 1 in befriending Martin and the revealing of the J/S backstory, S2 the subtle flirting/courting (whatever) of/with Martin and her therapy from being shot, S3 her relationship with Martin, S4 (which they totally ignored) actually 'being' there for Martin after his being shot rather than saying it the first episode and then pretty much disappearing until one scene about 18 episodes later, and S 5 with the 'revelation' [again, second worst storyline on this show after the pregnancy] of her secret and I have yet to see Sam grow once.

Here's where I get in trouble with the PM fans and I'll admit, I'm judging her without knowing much about her other than an article here or there or an occasional television (YouTube interview) but I think the reason Sam doesn't grow is because Poppy doesn't want her to. Either PM is incapable of portraying a character that evolves, or she is just too immature of a person to realize that real people do evolve and change.

Again, that's completely my opinion based on too little information (but hating the direction of the show and the lack of EC/Martin love these days on the show -- airtime I mean -- is making me 'hate Sam and by association, PM'


I give an angry face so you know I'm angry at them.

Love you guys though, you haven't booted me off yet.

Laurel

[Sharon]

Smartypants2, you have great insight. Your comment about Poppy pushing J/S because of ALP's stature on the show is something I have thought all along.

I also would have like to see Sam and Martin's relationship grow slowly thrugh S3 and not have them jump into bed. It was so obviously Sam's reaction to Jack leaving; not affection for Martin.

These characters are not teenagers falling in and out of love (no offense to teenagers, I hope you understand what I mean). They are adults who by now should be in touch with their feelings and capable of long term relationships. As much as I hate Danny/Elena, at least their relationship grew slowly.

I don't think the writers can write good relationship stories. Look at Jack and Anne. What a disaster. Started out like two lovesick adolescents, escalated too fast and ended without closure.

The writers, IMO, are turning Samanatha into someone I don't like. Grow up, lady. The world does not revolve around your emotional problems.

I don't like tht they wrote the pregnancy in, but maybe it will be a way for Sam to grow up and realize what is important in life - love and support from someone who cares for her - Martin.

[smartybear2]

sharlou said:

Smartypants2, you have great insight. Your comment about Poppy pushing J/S because of ALP's stature on the show is something I have thought all along.

thanks for the agreement but it's actually smartybear not smartypants.

it's really unfortunate that the writers seem to be all over the place these days. the show would definitely benefit from a sit-down brainstorming session where just one or two people will take charge of giving direction to the show. i get the feeling that another reason for the lack of continuity is that they're contracting each episode per episode and not keeping track of the long-term story threads that run through each episode. you know what i mean?

i, too, am very disappointed in the sharp decline in Martin moments; though i am glad that at least they are giving Vivs more moments. however, one scary thing at this juncture is that they seem to be trying to put in too many elements into the show -- too much going on and all that -- and it's beginning to take its toll on the quality of the editing and the stories.

i hate to say it, but we may be witnessing the beginning of the end.

sorry... i'm still in a blah mood about all this.

[jackyyy]

yeahh, i agree.
i miss all martins quality scenes
the writers are so scrambled and all over the place that the show doesnt seem able to continue a storyline for more then one epp.
i miss the good old days of season 1-3.

[Sharon]

I think the writers are trying to put too much shock into the stories. I yearn for the days when I could get emotionally vested inthe MP and care about what happened. I miss the team solving the search with intelligence (brain power) and cooperation.

The hi-tech stuff is interesting but it makes the search too cold and un=emotional for me.

And, the team does not seem emotionally invested in the MP either.

I agree that the problem is lack of communication between the various writers as to the past history of the team. And, there does not seem to be anyone in charge of "continuity".

It may, also, that they are taking the eps they filmedin the spring and are editing them into the eps they filmed in the fall and the show seems choppy.

[stephell5969]

I'm putting this here since it seems like the most recently active of the M/S ship threads.

So here's where for once I get hopeful (Jenn, like you despite myself hope springs eternal). I caught a portion of The Boogie Man today and it finally occurred to me to check the placement of this episode as well as to start putting some of the pieces together that are floating haphazardly (Thanks to TPTB) out there, here goes:

I read somewhere on this site that M/S were originally supposed to be the IT couple -- which is the best thing, (Sorry PM)and that ALP too recognizes that (well, at least he's said to recognize that J/S will never be good)

Now, someone else posted here their thoughts that perhaps the concern was for the whole Moonlighting debacle of full-blown relationships (Not to mention how badly Remington Steele did it and Lois and Clark) and while I agree that it is so cliche' for Hollywood to think that a committed relationship is boring and not interesting on TV, there is something to sexual tension (Thank you JAG for showing how well to do it, and X Files, you didn't do it too badly, except Gillian, when David left, you should have left, the last season was totally Jump the Shark -- but for all the wonderful seasons prior, I forgive you)

So, S3 they put M/S together, way too quickly, way to awkwardly and no surprise (now) it ended horribly, however, Second Sight aired right before The Bogie Man so here's my hope and how I put the puzzle together with the pieces now out and about:

Sam went back to the psychic who gave her a reading, something she had resisted until the psychic literally grabbed her and rapidly fired off things like being worried about a sick friend and unresolved issues with "M" (Yes, Martin or Malone) at the end of the eppie, Sam goes back and gets a reading.

The very next time we see Sam she is stating she wants to go to Martin's cousin's wedding and meet his family....perchance it is all subtle forshadowing that the psychic basically told her that tall, dark haired, blue-eyes, emotionally stable, available, man of integrity (not to mention HOT) is the right man and the cheating, lying, used you for an excuse not to go home and then tossed you away, hot, unavailable, broken man is best left in the past.

So, like Ross and Rachel that were great until -- The Break -- but got it together in the end (including some great friendship moments along the way) perhaps, perchance me thinks there may be hope and now that the horrible pregnancy storyline is to be fumbled into the mix(they've already fumbled it IMHO -- but that's best left explained for a later time) perhaps, hopefully, finally, Sam will grow up, deal with her emotions and recognize what's well (shameless, unsolicited plug to Jenn) In Plain Sight!

Today hope reigns, who know by the time the next eppie airs.

[Bright Eyes]

Hm, I think you might be on to something there.

At the time, Hank was still in charge and by 'the break-up' they had already decided that Martin should have a drug problem in Season 4.

Now if Martin and Sam had still been together, I think that logically, she would have discovered his addiction by, I don't know, maybe a couple of episodes after the one in which he fell down the stairs.

So in order to make the plotline last longer and to show just how alone and vulnerable he was, they really had to split them up.

I suppose TPTB feel that angsty relationships always make for good drama, but maybe, just maybe there might be still hope for M+S. After all, there are opportunities for plenty of angst coming up

I won't abandon hope just yet.

[Sharon]

I think Martin has to be the one to come to Sam's side. The way the show is going rightnow, Jack will blow a gasket or won't be in any shape to take care of anyone.

Sam needs Martin's gentle way to help her thru this.

At least that is my hope.

[stephell5969]

Sharlou,

I do hope that Martin is the one for Sam during the pregnancy, despite my previous comments elsewhere that I hope he is cold to her at first.

I should clarify, I hope he's there for her because she ASKS him to be there for her, not because she's all weepy 'cause Jack isn't there (and I hope he isn't 'cause he's suspended or in therapy or otherwise distracted with his anger issues and his nemesis, and perhaps Carlos and Danny and oh, my...what else??? oh, yeah, that Viv is kicking him in the butt) but I don't want Martin to be there for Sam after she goes to Jack first, gets turned down and is standing there looking like little girl lost and sappy Martin (and I don't think he's ever been a sap so I'll be so disappointed if they turn his character into a sap but they turned Sam into a bitch, so anything is possible).

If she reaches out to him, then I hope he responds by reaching back.



Then I'll be happier.

:-)

We'll see soon.

[jackyyy]

the way this season is going it looks like writers are planning some sort of trainwreck type thing with jack. so im thinking that hes going to have a breakdown or whatever, so he wouldnt exactly be the stable person to help sam through the pregnancy. that leaves martin the only one available. hopefully he will help her if she reaches out to him, and they get back together (where theyve belonged since season 3 )

[stephell5969]

Well, in less than one week we'll get some of the answers to our angsty wondering and questions as to who and how and when and why and whatever else happens.

I'm so pessimistic and saddened by the whole M/S has disappeared along with their friendship that I have no belief whatsoever that Sam will even tell Martin next week. Elena I believe finds out and she'll tell Jack for two reasons. 1: he's her boss; 2: 'cause she's still into him and needs to have a scene (this is PM I'm talking about now) with ALP for whatever dramatic effect she thinks it'll have where she can say "What do I do?" and be little girl lost so Jack will say, "Honey, I'm here for you." and he can take control of the situation like Sam/PM seems to want/need.



The following week we'll be into an episode prior to Sam telling anyone so either there will be no mention of pregnancy (as kinda makes sense since A: WaT is so good at skipping over dramatic points, and B: 'cause it's a crossover and thus pretty busy all by itself and then poof, it'll be episode 7 where many big things happen with baby and by then either she's still hiding it from everyone but Elena and Jack or everyone just knows ('cause a memo went out or something)

So very sad....

[Sharon]

My only wish is that they keep the pregnancy story in the background and not have it become the focal point.

I like the way it was subtly brought in at the end; without major hoopla and angst.

My other hope is that Jack is not sympathetic to the point of nausea. He has a lot going on right now. Viv will have her own task force and Sam will not be as productive (no offense to pregnant ladies; but this is Sam). So Jack's team is coming unglued.

[Jennie5309]

Ok, being pretty new, I hope I'm not bringing up points that have already been raised.

I think of the J/S relationship as one of those Sam chooses to remain safe. With not being emotionally available like she is, Jack would be a good choice.

Jack was married when they were together. What did she think was going to happen? Was he going to leave his wife and kids? In the end, he didn't end his marriage, his wife did. And...he ended the relationship with Sam. (Of course, a wise person once said that any big problem doesn't just sneak up on you. He was emotionally unavailable for years.) Why would that be safe? Well, if you have no future, you don't run the risk of having to reveal your deep, dark secrets. Of course, he is a "bad boy," so to speak because he wouldn't be taken aback by what Sam did years ago. That would be comforting to her. Although, he isn't the picture of any bad boys I've ever been attracted to.

Sam was involved with that NYPD guy when Martin started to show signs of interest. She said something along the lines of liking relationships that were "uncomplicated." All of the guys she was with were easily controlled.

Martin, on the other hand, was probably a really big scare to her. This could be the real thing! He pushes for more connection, relationship, recognition of their relationship and she balks. She tries to show him her feelings, but in the wrong ways and not enough of what he wants and he eventually kicks her to the curb because he's not putting up with her emotional unavailability and you can only beat your head against a wall so many times! Afterwards, you can tell she was hurt by the breakup. She gives him attitude a number of times. Now she's to the point where she flirts with him to see if he'll respond. It was pathetic for a while. Now at least he seems to flirt back.

Sam couldn't be with Martin when she deals with her past. As someone said about Martin- we needed to see her alone to empathize with her. Yeah, Jack was there for her, but he would see it as justifiable-more so than Martin.

I know I'm probably an optimist, but I see the intensity of Jack this season as a indication that he wouldn't be the man available to Sam. Even if it takes forever to resolve, I'm hopeful for a M/S reunion by the last episode.

I think I may be downplaying the J/S connection slightly. However, even though women like bad boys, they don't usually marry bad boys.