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Post by tvWATcher on Apr 29, 2009 22:11:46 GMT -5
Thanks Sharon for mentioning the broken leg. I thought maybe I dreamed that part. Brian didn't look to be in bad shape at all. I just don't understand why this is in the show at all. Bring back the team and get rid of all this personal stuff.  |
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Post by sandid on Apr 30, 2009 0:21:56 GMT -5
Thanks to all for the screen caps. They are all wonderful as usual.
No, septemberbaby, I don't think that Martin should have gotten away with what he done. He was willing and ready to take his punishment like a man (not in denial like Jack was/is). I think that Jack dealt out punishment based on his own problems and feelings, which, as we all know, are to numerous to name. On top of all this, I also think that a little bit of Jack was getting back at Martin, because, he was offered the so called "number two position" when Jack was working through his punishment. Perhaps Jack is carrying a little resentment around with him still, I mean he was demoted for his wrong doings and Martin got a slap on the wrist. Jack was also trying to show him whos the boss.
Just my thoughts.
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Post by erctheultimate on Apr 30, 2009 8:59:06 GMT -5
Not having seen the episode I can't really comment on Jack's attitude towards Martin however I would have to defend Jack against being hypocritical.
From what we gather Martin has been seriously short of oats and was thinking on points south of his belly button to such an extent that it seriously clouded his professional judgement and he compromised an ongoing investigtion.
As an agent par excellence Martin himself knows that and is quite prepared to accept his "punishment".
IMO, what Jack has done in the past is irrelevant. As Martin's supervisor and team leader it is up to him to apply discipline and whatever punishment he deems necessary. He will, in due course, have to make a report to his superiors.
When Jack transgressed in the past it was his bosses who decided on his fate - whether that was too lenient is a whole other argument but there are are two different chains of command and Jack was simply doing his job.
Whether he handled it fairly I'll decide when I see it but I don't believe he can be accused of hypocrisy.
The more I see the way things are heading the more I am beginning to get the same bad vibes mariepaule has.
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Post by sandid on Apr 30, 2009 9:09:39 GMT -5
My final say on this matter...................
what ever we say it is all hypo-thetical (is that how you spell it), anyway it doesn't matter, it is the writers final view on this point that will decide any out come, our opinions are all hypo-thetical?
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Post by mariepaule on Apr 30, 2009 10:57:44 GMT -5
The more I see the way things are heading the more I am beginning to get the same bad vibes mariepaule has.  I don't want you to agree with me, erc!!!!! Seriously, my problem with Jack is not the discipline, because yes, Martin did screw up, it's that he was so over the top about it. You didn't see it erc, but he was SO harsh about it, he was practically frothing at the mouth. And I see what you mean about Jack's past actions having nothing to do with Martin, but when he said that Martin made the unit look bad, as he's having a relationship with subordinate, that's hypocritical, IMO. And earlier in the episode, he was going to walk into a politician's house without a warrant and Viv had to calm him down. I know I'm completely biased as it comes to Martin, lol, but I still fail to see why what he did was SO incredibly awful, enough for him to risk losing his job. I just don't see it. In Season 1, yes, but in the context of Season 7?? Those guys are taking the law into their own hands all the time, beating up people (Jack), fudging reports, deciding who goes free, like Elena with her friend, Danny with the guy who pretended to be a doctor, and so on. In Martin's case, if he had buried the ballistic report when it came in and let Kim off the hook, IMO, that would have been bad enough for all the hoopla. But he did the right thing in the end. I just think that the writers suck, I guess. I've been thinking about this a little bit (LOLOLOL I'm obsessed, lol) and I've come to the conclusion that yes, Martin screwed up and Jack had to come down on him, but most of Jack's over the top behavior comes from: 1. Martin went to Danny instead of him, although to be accurate it's more like Danny went to Martin because I'm pretty sure that Martin was going to deal with this alone otherwise. 2. What Martin did made him look bad at a time where he just got his job back. And the sad thing is we really, really, need some follow-up between Martin and Jack, and we're probably not going to get it. Since EC is directing the episode following the next one, he's probably not going to be on much during the last 3 episodes, who knows, maybe never! |
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Post by mariepaule on Apr 30, 2009 11:04:58 GMT -5
Yes! A little bonding! That's all I wanted, really, just a little moment where I thought, Ah, he cares, lol. And they take 1 minute from WAT to give it to The Mentalist? Jerks! Thank you for understanding my frustration, because I don't really understand it myself. Goodness, they're only TV characters!  |
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Post by Sharon on Apr 30, 2009 16:19:20 GMT -5
Sadly we have all become invested in these characters which is what makes it really difficult to watch what has become of them. We just can't let go, can we? I am still waiting for the old Danny to come back! And I find it difficult to continue to like Samanatha. Yes, I am still in denial that Jack is a bad person, but it is getting really hard to defend explain him. |
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Post by Bright Eyes on Apr 30, 2009 17:25:32 GMT -5
Well, I haven't had a chance to watch the episode yet, so I'm curious to see the whole Martin/Jack business.
Before I see it though, this is me, trying to get inside Jack's head to see if I can make sense of his behaviour.
In defence of Jack, I think he probably would have been just as angry if it had been Danny instead of Martin.
Jack has never really shown much compassion to any of the team (well, apart from Samantha of course) when they screw up.
His relationship with Danny and Martin has always been, I don't know, distant? Yes, they work together and have each other's backs, but I doubt they ever really socialised outside of work. He's very much the boss and they work for him.
Up until recently, Jack was a man totally obsessed with his career to the detriment of everything else.
Jack has put himself out there emotionally for Samantha and I think he realises it's starting to unravel and he can't do anything about it.
Sensing he has no control over what's happening in his personal life, he could be starting to shift his attention to the job again, (his comfort zone, if you like) and perhaps the fact that Martin (and Danny) didn't include him in the loop makes him feel that maybe he has no control over either his agents and therefore the job.
I'll probably have a completely different take on things when I see the episode!
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Post by mariepaule on Apr 30, 2009 18:28:07 GMT -5
Well, I haven't had a chance to watch the episode yet, so I'm curious to see the whole Martin/Jack business. Before I see it though, this is me, trying to get inside Jack's head to see if I can make sense of his behaviour. In defence of Jack, I think he probably would have been just as angry if it had been Danny instead of Martin. Jack has never really shown much compassion to any of the team (well, apart from Samantha of course) when they screw up. His relationship with Danny and Martin has always been, I don't know, distant? Yes, they work together and have each other's backs, but I doubt they ever really socialised outside of work. He's very much the boss and they work for him. Up until recently, Jack was a man totally obsessed with his career to the detriment of everything else. Jack has put himself out there emotionally for Samantha and I think he realises it's starting to unravel and he can't do anything about it. Sensing he has no control over what's happening in his personal life, he could be starting to shift his attention to the job again, (his comfort zone, if you like) and perhaps the fact that Martin (and Danny) didn't include him in the loop makes him feel that maybe he has no control over either his agents and therefore the job. I'll probably have a completely different take on things when I see the episode! No Bright Eyes, it makes a lot of sense. I could see where he would feel like things are getting out of control, both in his personal life and at work, and he overreacted with Martin . Unfortunately, to me it doesn't excuse his behavior. He was such a jerk! LOL I still can't believe it. Regarding Danny, I always thought that he had a soft spot for him. I remember when he was being transferred to Chicago, he said to Danny that he wished he could take him too, or something like that. And when Danny's brother was missing, he wanted to help and you could tell he cared. I can't think of an example where I thought the same with Martin. Maybe Jack just doesn't like him. |
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Post by Jennifoofighter on May 2, 2009 14:17:29 GMT -5
Okay, I know everyone has pretty much already chimed in but I finally succumbed and went ahead and watched. I think after reading everyone's comments I don't have much to add because I either agree or understand where so many of you are coming from. I can see why Winter liked it, there was tons of Sam. I can see why MariePaule hated it, our boy was pathetic. So this post is just me seeing what I saw...
MP case once again had great potential but was poorly cast (I'm sorry, I just do not like the actress who played Molly. It's my own bias but I didn't like her on The Nanny and I didn't like her here. She... over acts, imho.) Nick Lea was fine but wasn't compelling as a bad guy and I wanted more. Also, I don't know what it is with TPTB lately but they keep trying to go for this surprise twist at the end but it just comes off as silly. Whatever.
Sam and Brian were cute but again, imho, I don't see Sam and Brian: I see Poppy and Adam. I'm not the least bit objective on the JSB stuff so I'll leave it there.
But as far as the big meaty topic of debate: the Jack tongue lashing.
I don't think anyone is reading this thread anymore but just in case let me say a few things to explain where I am coming from:
I agree that Martin deserved to be reprimanded for what he did. No doubt.
I HATE the philosophy of 'do what I say but not as a I do' - I think its a crap argument. I think leaders lead by example and actions speak louder than words.
Now, I missed the very beginning of the first scene because there was a breaking weather report that night - I guess Fate was trying to warn me, too. LOL. So I started watching it when Jack asks where Kim is now (um, tell me why that isn't in the report he just read?) Now, I agree with MariePaule in that some of us fans may be in the minority in remembering all that has happened over the course of the last seven years but it does color how we see things so that's what happened here. I thought Jack's tone was... annoying. Like he was bugged that he has to deal with this stuff and I hated the way he offhandedly pointed to Danny and argued that Martin went to him. He lashes out at them and I doubly hated the way Danny tried to interject his own opinion only to be rudely and curtly cut off. And then when he tells Danny that since he has nothing to add to 'get out.' Groan. I do like that Danny looked at Martin as if to say, 'sorry man, good luck.'
Now I saw that Jack rubbed his head and asked 'what the hell?' but another weather report chimed in so I just caught the end of his synopsis of events before sending out the door to think about why he did what he did while he thinks of ways to preserve his damn job. So Martin walks out like a puppy with his tail between his legs.
Can I just say how mad and hurt I am that this is how this story is playing out? Forget the debacle that was the Kim storyline - why again did they go out of their way to show her taking a bribe by the mob guy only to go in a totally separate direction of being a bank robber? Again, the writers like their dumb ass surprise twists instead of working on something that could be compelling! Anyway, what really bugs me is that it's like they are continuing to show Martin makes ZERO progress. He was being treated and somewhat acting like the rookie he was back in season one. But he is always willing to come forward and face his consequences. ALWAYS. In 'A Tree Falls' from season two, granted my memory is dodgy, it was Viv who wanted the shooting covered up. Martin's guilty conscience got the best of him and that's how and why Jack found out. He always tries to do the right thing and when he doesn't he tries to correct it. And it wasn't like he hid the fact that Kim pulled a gun on him to be shady but he thought she had been through enough and had legitimate reasons to be terrified. (Hello? A guy blew up her house and tried to kill her and Martin.) And this season alone we had Danny let the ID guy go, Elena helped out her friend by agreeing to let her take the fall instead of the boy, Sam tried to help the father who robbed the Western Union and Jack let a prisoner go.... Aren't all the agents making concessions and taking the law into their own hands as of late? Or is it only valid when the agents meet them years after the fact? No, Kim's bank robbery days were five years ago and as far as we know Martin doesn't know about the bribe so with that in mind, time did pass. LOL.
Fine. Thinking like SeptemberBaby said, Jack wants his agents to be better than they are I decided to let this scene go with that in mind. He was disappointed and hurt and angry that they didn't come to him. But again, maybe they learn by example.
So cut to the final end scene with Martin and Jack. This is where, I am sorry to those who love Jack, pissed me off to the high heavens. Okay, Jack has never being a big defender or friend to Martin. Maybe because Martin's always getting into trouble or what. So Jack isn't Gibbs or Grissom who will get mad at their team members at times for bone headed stuff but at least with those shows we see them defend their team to the higher ups and then later they approach said team person and check in, explain or talk. So Jack is who Jack is, fine.
Now, I know that after Martin got shot Jack checked in ("Safe") then promptly told him they were adding another agent. He seems to always tell Martin to go home and get rest, like in "Voir Dire" or again back in season four when he seemed to notice a change in Martin ("The Little Things") but let it go and we never saw him actually try and find out why. So Jack has always been boss above all else with Martin so I don't know why I expected or hoped for anything different. Maybe because my ability to like Jack fades each week and when I think there is a chance to show me why Martin is so unfailingly loyal to him, they disappointment me. I honestly don't know why Martin continues to defend Jack come rain or high water. Danny and Viv, two people who butt heads with Jack but also get to experience his humor and friendship as well, are often willing to question Jack but Martin is like some sad puppy who just wants to please his master all the damn time and it's ticking me off. Is it some misguided father complex? Who knows but I don't get it.
Is it just me or did Jack sound annoyed or something when he said: "I had a talk with the Director." Jack looks down to read the folder. "He expressed disappointment but considering your record he decided to see it as an admiration and let it go with a letter of censure." (AND AGAIN, interrupted by a weather report so I missed a tiny bit. LOL.) So maybe Jack defended Martin up and down but, to me, judging by his tone, it seemed like the Director made this decision on his own or that Daddy Dearest connection played a hand and this displeased him. It did not seem to me like this was a result of Jack's doing. Again, maybe this is yet another example of where we get to make stuff up in our head but I'm growing sick and tired of having to do all the work! LOL.
Anyhoo, it seemed to me like Jack thought the punishment was too light or that Martin was getting away with something. This pissed me off because it wasn't like Martin wasn't willing to accept his fate. It didn't seem to me like he was being defiant or trying to argue his way out of anything. He was willing to take his licks and message was clearly received but Jack just kept going at him with the punches! But the piece de resistance was after Martin said thank you Jack gave him a hard look and with real venom in his voice said, "No. We're not done. You may be off the hook with the director but not here. You wasted my time. You made this unit look like crap. For the next six months.... blah, blah, blah..."
HYPOCRITE.
I'm sorry, Annie is right. If this was old Jack this argument would be harsh but believable and understandable. But to accuse Martin of making the unit looking like crap was the worst. For him to say that to Martin after all that crap he pulled in the last few years - hell, in this eppy alone when he tried to force his way into the congressman's house saying he thinks he hears someone screaming - he has no right. It was that line alone that changed the entire scene for me. Jack is sleeping with his subordinate agent and got his job back after strangling the brother of the suspect with a coat hanger. Martin who did not know that Kim was evil until after he had slept with her and, yes, he procrastinated but judging by how fast they moved it wasn't like it took all season for him to come forward and try to make things right. And really, Jack is pointing fingers about when and who it is appropriate to sleep with? Really, Jack? Really??
Now maybe some of you are right that he wanted Martin to come to him to cover it up but I wonder if it would have been to help Martin or just to avoid casting light on his unit. Who's job was he really trying to preserve? If Jack really does care about his team and thinks that they should be better than him, then he needs to figure out what sort of team leader he is, too. Maybe he was lashing out because of his own personal worries but again, isn't he the one telling our agents to leave that stuff out of the office? Growl.
I still cannot understand Martin's loyalty but I can't understand Danny's either. I wished Danny had tossed some stuff back in Jack's face like, "We would have come to you but whenever I try and get your attention you get mad at me for interrupting your time with Sam." Sorry. That was mean but it really made me mad that Jack told Martin HE was the reason the team was going to look like crap. If they had omitted that one line - just that one - I may have seen it differently but I just can't overlook it. I can't. I won't.
ETA: SORRY!! I said I didn't have much to add but then ranted. Sorry.
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Post by mariepaule on May 2, 2009 14:53:53 GMT -5
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Post by Jennifoofighter on May 2, 2009 15:15:27 GMT -5
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Post by Sharon on May 2, 2009 18:02:39 GMT -5
I really tried to put this whole episode out of my mind, but after reading Jenn's post (which I pretty much agree with), my anger goes back to the writers.
they are writing Jack as if they think he is a leader and his over the top actions are acceptable. I question what life experiences these writers have had or does living in Hollywood distort your values?
And that includes Jack/Sam and Danny/Elena.
Jack is an unhappy man. He is his own worst enemy. I find Jack the most interesting when he is in angst or with his sarcastic, self=deprecating humor.
When the writers give us a scene where Jack is bonding with Sam, I laugh out loud. He says words that Jack would never say.
I even find the Danny/Elena relationship juvenile.
No offense to those of you who are young, but I don't think the writers on this show have a clue about real life. They are 20-somethings writing characters who are more 40something and it just does not work for me.
That is why the fics here are so great. They are written within character and with real situations. WAT is becoming comic book.
That's my opinion. So, why can't I stop watching the show?
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Post by Bright Eyes on May 2, 2009 18:05:26 GMT -5
guess who guest starred in this show that aired opposite of WAT? Adam Kaufman. Dude's been busy. LOL. Yeah, pity he doesn't busy himself off for good to some other show.  I have many reasons why I just don't buy into his appearing on WAT, but it struck me when reading your comments - like you Jenn, I don't see Brian and Samantha, but Adam and Poppy. As regards the comments by you and MariePaule, I'm going to agree with you both and go with your opinions of Ep 21. I cannot seem to play the episode on Greatstuff TV (sheesh! Hope I haven't broke the damn laptop already!! LOL!) so I'll wait for it to come on TV. Though I think I might just cry at seeing Marty being chewed out of it.... Never mind, Jack will get his come-uppance sooner or later.....  |
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Post by Bright Eyes on May 2, 2009 18:08:01 GMT -5
So, why can't I stop watching the show? For me, that's easy : Eric Close  |
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